【高端访谈】高级WSET教育者,葡萄酒演讲者,Decanter葡萄酒奖评审员 JC Viens

-好的，JC。你对葡萄酒的热情是什么时候产生的，以及你在这个领域的经验是如何形成的？

Ok, JC. First of all, tell us more about yourself. When did your passion for wine begin, and how did your experience in this field develop?

-实际上，故事始于2006年。我妻子在圣诞节给了我一门葡萄酒课程作为礼物，那是我第一次发现葡萄酒世界的美妙。在完成最初的课程后，我对此产生了浓厚的兴趣，于是决定继续深造，报名参加第二和第三门课程。然而，当我达到WCT水平时，我在学习上遇到了一些困难。

Well, the story actually started in 2006. My wife gifted me a wine course for Christmas, and that's when I first discovered the beauty of the world of wine. After completing the initial course, I was so intrigued that I decided to pursue further education by enrolling in second and third courses. However, when I reached the WCT level, I faced some difficulties with my studies.

就在那段时间，我偶然发现了一句据说是孔子说的话：“欲学则读，欲教则思。”受到这些话的启发，我做出了改变一生的决定，开始教授葡萄酒课程。从那时起，我不仅对葡萄酒和美食爱得深沉，也爱上了教学本身。我将对葡萄酒的热情与对教学的新发现结合在一起，踏上了追求所有葡萄酒课程的旅程，包括大师级的葡萄酒课程，并到处旅行以扩展我的知识。从那时起，这个旅程既充满挑战又美妙绚烂，带给我无尽的学习和成长机会。

It was at that moment when I came across a quote attributed to Confucius, "If you want to learn, read! If you want to master, teach." Inspired by these words, I made a life-changing decision to start teaching wine courses. That's when I truly fell in love, not only with wine and food, but with the act of teaching itself. Combining my passion for wine with my newfound passion for teaching, I embarked on a journey to pursue every single wine course available, including the master wine course, and I traveled wherever I could to expand my knowledge. Since then, this journey has been both intense and beautiful, with endless opportunities for learning and growth.

-作为教育者、老师，你认为在你的课堂上传递的最重要的价值观是什么？

As an educator, a teacher, what values do you consider most important to convey in your class?

-感谢你的提问，这对我来说非常重要，也是我深深关心的事情。我认为一个好的教师是能够帮助学生对学科进行批判性思考的人。如今葡萄酒行业的一个主要弱点是很多课程只是单纯地传递事实。因此，人们学到了许多孤立的事实，并且可能只是在琐碎的知识中应付一些游戏。他们或许可以告诉你关于某个特定葡萄品种或葡萄酒产区的一切，但他们未必能够将这些事实联系在一起，真正理解葡萄酒的本质、文化方面，或者为什么某些风格或酿酒技术会产生特定的结果。作为教师，我们的目标应该是赋予学生能够清晰表达思想、权威地交流，并且对自己拥有的知识深信不疑的能力。这不仅仅是收集信息，更重要的是理解更大的图景以及葡萄酒、文化和酿酒技术之间的联系。这方面对于葡萄酒教育来说至关重要。

Thanks for asking, as this is something very important to me and something I care deeply about. I believe that a good teacher is someone who helps students think critically about the subject matter. One major weakness in the wine industry today is that many courses are designed solely to transmit facts. As a result, people learn a lot of isolated facts and can play trivial games with that knowledge. They might be able to tell you everything about a specific grape variety or wine region, but they might not necessarily be able to connect these facts together to truly understand what wine is about, the cultural aspects, or why certain styles or winemaking techniques produce specific results. As teachers, our goal should be to empower our students with the ability to articulate their thoughts clearly, communicate with authority, and be convinced by the knowledge they possess. It's not just about gathering information; it's about understanding the bigger picture and the connections between various aspects of wine, culture, and winemaking techniques. This aspect is crucial for wine education.

-作为学生，在葡萄酒世界这片广阔领域中，你是如何指导全球各种葡萄酒和葡萄品种的？

And as a student, someone who never stops learning in the world of wine, what method do you use to navigate the vast world of global wines and grape varieties?

-这是一个真正的挑战，正如你刚才提到的。在学习葡萄酒方面，我们永远不可能真正完成。一旦我们开始，这就成为了一段持续不断的旅程。回答你的问题的第一步是接受我们只是广阔葡萄酒世界中的一小部分，每一杯葡萄酒都会教会我们新的东西。我们读的每一本书或探索的每一篇文章都应该带给我们新的见解。即使它们没有介绍新的因素，也应该让我们对葡萄酒和我们对待葡萄酒的方式产生不同的思考。

This is a real challenge, as you just mentioned. It's impossible to ever truly finish studying wine. Once we start, it becomes an ongoing journey. The first step to answering your question is accepting that we are just a small part of the vast wine world, and each glass of wine teaches us something new. Every book we read or article we explore should provide us with new insights. Even if it doesn't introduce new facts, it should make us think differently about wine and our approach to it.

在我看来，最关键的方面是理解葡萄酒的风格。当我们喝葡萄酒时，什么让我们感到愉悦？它是否反映了我们的情感或提供了安慰？有些葡萄酒让我们感到清新振奋，有些葡萄酒让我们感到舒适和平静。要理解风格，我们也必须了解它们是如何实现的。在学习过程中，我们应该经常问为什么某个特定的信息很有趣，因为它影响了葡萄酒的风格。许多人学习事实时并没有直接将其与葡萄酒本身联系起来，这就是缺失的地方。这会使学习葡萄酒变得困难，因为我们可能会因为信息的数量而感到不知所措。相反，我们应该专注于将每个事实与葡萄酒的风格相连接 - 这是绝对必要的关键点。

From my perspective, the most crucial aspect is understanding wine styles. What brings us pleasure when we drink wine? Does it reflect our emotions or provide comfort? There are wines that refresh us and lift our spirits, and there are wines that comfort and bring peace to our minds. To comprehend styles, we must also understand how they are achieved. When studying, we should always ask why a particular piece of information is interesting, as it influences the wine's style. Many people learn facts without making a direct connection to the wine itself, and this is what's missing. It can make studying about wines difficult because we may feel overwhelmed by the quantity of information. Instead, we should focus on connecting each fact to the style of the wine - that's the key point, absolutely essential.

我注意到如今很容易混淆葡萄酒的品质和风格，其实它们是完全不同的概念。例如，一款葡萄酒可能有一个年轻、清新、易于饮用的风格，并且品质可以是可接受或良好的。对于这样的葡萄酒，我们不需要过度思考。另一方面，有些葡萄酒更为严肃和重要，需要更多的考虑。然而，我们不应该仅因为某些酒易于饮用、平易近人和多用途，就将它们标记为低品质；同样，也不应仅因为某些酒较为严肃，就认为它们是高品质的。风格和品质是两个独立的概念。

I noticed that quality and style are often mixed up today. They are actually two completely different things. For instance, a wine can have a style that is meant to be young, fresh, and easygoing, with acceptable or good quality. We don't need to overthink such wines. On the other hand, some wines are more serious and important, and they require more consideration. However, we shouldn't label the refreshing, accessible, and versatile wines as low quality simply because they are easygoing, nor should we consider the more serious wines as high quality just because they are serious. Style and quality are separate concepts.

葡萄酒的魔力和美在于发现葡萄园、葡萄、酿酒师、风格和品质之间的联系。理解所有这些因素如何相互结合，创造出我们喜爱的葡萄酒，正是让学习葡萄酒真正迷人的地方。

The magic and beauty of wine lie in finding connections between the vineyard, grape, producer, style, and quality. Understanding how all these elements come together to create the wine we enjoy is what makes studying wine truly fascinating.

-谢谢JC。我们来谈谈中国。在你看来，中国的葡萄酒文化是否在增长？如果是的话，它的发展方向是什么？

Thank you, JC. Let's talk about China. Do you think the wine culture is growing there? And if so, in which direction is it heading?

我三年前离开了中国，现在只能分享我在那里生活了13年的经历。中国葡萄酒市场的大繁荣始于2006年至2008年左右，当时香港降低了进口税，并将自己定位为葡萄酒进口到中国的枢纽。许多人将香港视为存储葡萄酒并逐渐将其出口到中国的平台。然而，在那段时期之后，许多人似乎忽略了中国发展的一个重要方面。

-I left China three years ago, and now I can only share my experiences from when I lived there for 13 years. The big boom in the Chinese wine market began around 2006 to 2008 when Hong Kong lowered its import tax and positioned itself as a hub for wine importation into China. Many focused on Hong Kong as a platform for storing wine and gradually exporting it into China. However, after that period, many people seemed to forget an important aspect of China's development.

大约在2008年至2010年间，中国仍然是一个发展中国家，其人口正在学会消费。对于大多数中国人来说，可自由支配收入（即用于购买非必需品的资金）相对较低。葡萄酒作为一种奢侈品，并非必需品，而是人们想要享受的东西。随着中国的快速变化，人们的可自由支配收入增加，消费者现在正在尝试不同的产品，包括葡萄酒。中国的葡萄酒市场正在迅速发展，这使得预测短期结果变得具有挑战性。然而，我坚信中国葡萄酒市场的长期潜力是巨大的。将中国与美国进行对比，美国在上世纪90年代初的葡萄酒消费几乎微不足道，而现在已成为全球最大的葡萄酒消费国。我预测，在未来25年内，中国将毫无疑问地成为最重要、最大的全球葡萄酒市场。然而，就目前而言，我们应该允许中国消费者自由尝试，发现他们的喜好。为了迎合他们，我们应该简化我们的沟通方式，将重点放在以口感为基础的葡萄酒介绍，而不是像土壤成分等技术细节。在此时此刻，中国消费者更需要的是灵感，而不是教育，因为他们真正在探索和试图找到自己的喜好。

Comparing China with the United States, wine consumption in America was almost insignificant in the early 1990s, and now it is the largest consumer of wine worldwide. I predict that in 25 years, China will undeniably become the most important and biggest wine market globally. Nevertheless, for now, we should allow Chinese consumers to experiment freely and discover their preferences. To cater to them, we should simplify our communication and focus on explaining wine in terms of taste rather than technical details like soil composition. Chinese consumers need inspiration more than education at this moment because they are genuinely exploring and trying to figure out their preferences.

总的来说，中国葡萄酒市场仍处于转型阶段，消费者正在探索不同的选择。为他们提供灵感，并指导他们发现自己的口味偏好是至关重要的。随着中国经济持续增长，其葡萄酒市场必然会成为全球葡萄酒产业中最重要的角色之一。

In summary, the Chinese wine market is still in its transformative stage, and consumers are exploring different options. It is crucial to provide inspiration and guide them in discovering their taste preferences. As China's economy continues to grow, its wine market will inevitably become one of the most significant players in the global wine industry.

-在这庞大的中国市场中，意大利和欧洲的葡萄酒具体处于怎样的地位？有哪些策略（已经提到一些）是葡萄酒酿酒厂必须采取的，不仅是为了进入市场，还为了在中国市场中巩固和保持地位？

Specifically regarding markets, how are Italian and European wines positioned in this vast Chinese market? And what are the strategies, you mentioned some already, that wineries must employ not only to enter but also to establish themselves and remain in the Chinese market?

-首先，我们需要理解中国并非一个单一的国家，而是由许多不同地区组成，每个地区的消费者成熟度都不同。例如，在中国南部地区，我们有大湾区，包括广州、香港和澳门，人口约七千万至八千万。这个地区的消费相对其他地区，如北京或南京，更为成熟。因此，我们在这些市场的进入策略需要相应地进行调整。

-First of all, we need to approach the Chinese market with the understanding that China is not a homogenous country. It is a collection of many different regions, each with varying levels of consumer maturity. For instance, in the southern part of China, we have the Greater Bay Area, including Guangzhou, Hong Kong, and Macao, with a population of around 70 to 80 million people. Consumption in this region is more mature compared to other areas like Beijing or Nanjing. Therefore, our approach to these markets needs to be tailored accordingly.

其次，我们必须认识到目前许多中国消费者的可支配收入有限，使得每次购买葡萄酒都成为一个特别的场合。由于这一点，中国消费者在选择产品时非常挑剔。要在中国葡萄酒市场取得成功，意大利葡萄酒需要被视为独特而崇高的产品。强调生产商的悠久历史或家族世代生产葡萄酒的背景，是吸引中国消费者、巩固在市场地位的一种方法。

Secondly, we must acknowledge that many Chinese consumers currently have limited discretionary income to spend on wine, making every purchase a special occasion. Due to this, Chinese consumers are very discerning when it comes to choosing products. To succeed in the Chinese wine market, Italian wines need to be perceived as something special and prestigious. Emphasizing the long history of a producer or a family producing wine for many generations can be one way to appeal to Chinese consumers and consolidate our position in the market.

总结起来，在中国取得成功，我们应认识到地区差异，并相应地调整我们的策略。此外，我们需要将意大利葡萄酒定位为崇高而特别的产品，突出它们的历史意义和生产背后的独特故事。

In summary, to be successful in China, we should recognize the regional differences and tailor our approach accordingly. Additionally, we need to position Italian wines as prestigious and special products, highlighting their historical significance and the unique stories behind their production.

例如，来自意大利一个历史显赫、高贵或有名望的特殊产区的葡萄酒，可以增强我们的葡萄酒在中国市场上的崇高地位。此外，生产商在国际葡萄酒评论家中的声誉，而不仅仅在意大利，也能增加葡萄酒的吸引力。强调与我们的葡萄酒崇高地位相关的任何方面，无疑将有助于在中国市场取得成功，因为葡萄酒在中国被视为奢侈品，与特殊场合相关联。

For example, wines from a special region of Italy that is historically significant, noble, or famous can enhance the prestige of our wines in China. Additionally, a producer's reputation among international wine critics, not just in Italy, can also boost the wine's appeal. Emphasizing any aspect related to the prestige of our wines will undoubtedly help in the Chinese market, where wine is considered a luxury product and associated with special.

-另一个问题是关于我们在意大利拥有的丰富多样性，包括葡萄酒的多样性，这是一个巨大的优势。但是，如何在中国展现这种多样性，特别是让我们的中国朋友对不那么知名的意大利地区产生兴趣，而不仅局限于托斯卡纳、威尼托和皮埃蒙特地区？

Another question. Regarding the great diversity we have in Italy, the diversity of wines we have, it's a huge strength. But how can we promote this diversity in China, also focusing on lesser-known Italian regions, instead of just Tuscany, Veneto, and Piedmont, and convince our Chinese friends to explore these lesser-known Italian regions?

-这无疑是一个巨大的挑战，但我相信随着时间的推移，它终将会实现。在目前这个阶段，对于中国消费者来说，更容易发现和熟悉意大利知名的葡萄酒产区。随着他们对意大利作为葡萄酒生产国的熟悉度增加，一些更具冒险精神的葡萄酒爱好者可能会开始探索不那么知名的地区。在不久的将来，我们可能会看到更多年轻的中国旅行者以小团或独自的方式前往意大利，寻求体验乡村而非仅仅购物。这为我们提供了一个绝佳的机会，通过展示我们的乡村，并向他们介绍这些不那么知名的产区的葡萄酒，与他们建立情感上的联系。当他们有了这样独特的体验后，会带回这些葡萄酒与家人和朋友分享。我坚信，这是鼓励他们尝试和欣赏不同葡萄酒的前进之路。然而，除非我们拥有声望显赫的奖项或悠久的历史可供讲述，要说服中国消费者选择我们的葡萄酒而非其他葡萄酒，在中国可能仍然是一个重大挑战。

This is undoubtedly a significant challenge, but I believe it will eventually happen with time. At this moment, it may be easier for Chinese consumers to discover and become comfortable with the better-known and famous wine regions in Italy. As they gain familiarity with Italy as a wine-producing country, some more adventurous wine drinkers may start exploring less-known areas. In the near future, we may see more young Chinese travelers venturing to Italy in smaller groups or alone, seeking to experience the countryside rather than just shopping. This presents an excellent opportunity for us to emotionally connect with them by showcasing our countryside and introducing them to the wines from these lesser-known regions. As they have this unique experience, they will bring back these wines to share with others at home. I firmly believe that this is the way forward to encourage them to try and appreciate different wines. However, unless we have prestigious awards or a long history to talk about, convincing Chinese consumers to choose our wines over others may indeed remain a significant challenge in China.

-我们可以一起澄清一些关于中国的刻板印象，比如他们只喝红葡萄酒之类的说法？-再比如一些人认为中国的进口商只喜欢低成本的葡萄酒?

Let's debunk some common misconceptions about China, things we often hear, like for example, that Chinese people only drink red wine... or that Chinese importers only want low-cost wine. ..

-是的，这是正确的，但情况正在改变。如果我们看看广东省，它位于中国南部，靠近香港，那里的天气非常炎热潮湿。那里的人更倾向于喝一些清爽的酒。因此，那个地区的起泡酒销售量在迅速增长。因此，仅饮用红葡萄酒的观念变得更加灵活。由于与健康益处和声望的关联，红葡萄酒在中国将始终是重要的。然而，随着消费者对葡萄酒的经验越来越丰富，他们变得更加冒险，开始探索其他选择。白葡萄酒和起泡酒，尤其是在中国南部地区，可能在不久的将来显示出显著增长。一些意大利的起泡酒，如Moscato和Prosecco，在中国已经表现得非常出色。我相信，更多具有声望的传统方法起泡酒也将日益受到欢迎。

Yes, this is true, but the situation is changing. If we look at Guangdong province, which is closer to the south of China and near Hong Kong, the weather is very hot and humid. People there are more inclined to drink something refreshing. Consequently, the sales of sparkling wine in that area are growing rapidly. As a result, the notion of only drinking red wine is becoming more flexible. Red wine will always be important in China due to its association with health benefits and prestige. However, as consumers gain more experience with wine, they become more adventurous and start exploring other options. White wine and sparkling wine, especially in the southern region of China, are likely to show significant growth in the near future. Some Italian sparkling wines, like Moscato and Prosecco, are already doing exceptionally well in China. I am confident that more prestigious traditional method sparkling wines will also become increasingly popular.

另一方面，情况并不完全简单。在可支配收入相对较低的市场中，用于日常消费的葡萄酒必须具有竞争性的价格，通常在超市销售。然而，当我们在中国的超市和葡萄酒店里购物时，我们发现葡萄酒的价格并不像人们预期的那样便宜。市场的不透明性和难以进入可能会导致中国买家在购买葡萄酒时协商出非常低的价格，然后在回到市场后以更高的价格销售。

On the other hand, the situation is not entirely straightforward. In a market where discretionary income is relatively low, selling wines for everyday consumption must be competitively priced, often in supermarkets. However, when we visit supermarkets and wine shops in China, we find that wine is not as cheap as one might expect. The market's opacity and difficulty to penetrate may lead Chinese buyers to negotiate very low prices when purchasing wine, only to sell it at a much higher price once back in the market.

实际上，他们是那些在生产商过于轻易让步时赚取利润的人。我相信许多生产商太容易接受低价。一些生产商最好做好功课，更加谨慎，少些急躁，并坚持自己的价格。他们应该说：“我的价格不会这么低，我只会以这个价格销售我的葡萄酒”，然后等待。最终，中国的葡萄酒消费者将变得更加苛求，现在以25或30欧元销售的葡萄酒在类似意大利的市场上可能实际上以4、5或6欧元的价格销售。中国消费者并不天真，他们懂得品质，知道什么不值得那个价钱。他们将开始寻找价值，而且他们会找到的，特别是如果有诚实且提供公平利润的进口商。作为葡萄酒生产商，我们需要耐心等待，以正确的价格出售，让市场成熟并变得更加平衡。

So, actually, they are the ones making the margin when producers give in too quickly. I believe many producers accept low prices too easily. Some producers would do well to do their homework, be a bit more cautious, less impatient, and hold firm on their prices. They should say, "My price is not so low, and I will sell my wine only at this price," and then wait. Eventually, wine consumers in China will become more demanding, and what is now sold for 25 or 30 euros may actually be sold for four, five, or six euros in a market like Italy. Chinese consumers are not naive; they know quality and understand when something is not worth the price. They will start looking for value, and they will find it, especially if there are importers who are honest and offer a fair margin. As wine producers, we need to be patient and sell at the right price, allowing the market to mature and become more balanced.

-好的，作为结束，你可以给我们建议一道与你最喜欢的中式菜肴完美搭配的葡萄酒。

Alright, to wrap up, can you suggest your perfect pairing with your favorite Chinese dish?

-我认为在中国，大多数食物都有很多鲜味。他们使用一些烹饪技巧来强调食物的鲜味，并且菜肴通常配有富含鲜味的各种调味汁。在我看来，特别是来自意大利的传统方法起泡酒非常适合搭配中国菜的丰富鲜味。虽然许多教科书和文章都建议用雷司令葡萄酒来搭配中国菜，但我完全不同意。我认为意大利的传统方法起泡酒更适合，因为它们与中国菜中的鲜味最接近。

well, I think that in China, most of the food has a lot of umami taste. They use certain cooking techniques that emphasize umami in food, and dishes are often served with various sauces rich in umami. In my opinion, traditional method sparkling wines, especially those from Italy, pair very well with the umami-rich context of Chinese cuisine. While many textbooks and articles suggest Riesling as the best wine for Chinese food, I completely disagree. I believe traditional method sparkling wines from Italy are a better match because they are closest to the umami flavors found in Chinese dishes.

此外，像Prosecco这样的香槟法起泡酒也很清新活泼，带有稍微的芳香特质，非常适合搭配亚洲美食，特别是中国菜。只需要中国饮酒者耐心去发现和欣赏这些葡萄酒的搭配。

Furthermore, the Charmat method sparkling wines, like Prosecco, are also refreshing and vibrant with a slightly aromatic character, making them a great pairing with Asian food, particularly Chinese cuisine. It just requires patience for Chinese drinkers to discover and appreciate these wine pairings.

我还想提到的是，虽然中国饮酒者可能会因为布鲁内洛、巴罗洛和阿马罗尼等葡萄酒的名声而喜欢它们，但他们对口感特别敏感，即葡萄酒在口中的感觉。更顺滑、更精致的葡萄酒会受到高度赞赏。例如，来自皮埃蒙特地区的美丽巴贝拉葡萄酒，因其低单宁和清爽品质，将受到许多中国饮酒者的喜爱，因为它与中国菜的质地相得益彰。意大利还提供许多其他低单宁和更清爽的葡萄酒，随着中国饮酒者的了解，他们肯定会越来越欣赏。

Another aspect I want to mention is that while Chinese drinkers may enjoy wines like Brunello, Barolo, and Amarone due to their fame, they are particularly sensitive to texture, meaning how the wine feels on the palate. Wines that are smoother and more delicate will be highly appreciated. For example, a beautiful Barbera from the Piedmont region, with its low tannins and refreshing qualities, will be well-liked by many Chinese drinkers, as it complements the textures of Chinese food. Italy offers many other wines with less tannins and more refreshing qualities that, as Chinese drinkers get to know them, they will surely appreciate more and more.

-谢谢，非常感谢你的时间，JC

Thank you, thank you very much, JC, for your time.

-谢谢

Thank you

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